Improving teaching and schools: an interview with the leaders of Equal Education

This is a critical moment for Equal Education (EE), the social movement that has been campaigning for this since 2010.

GroundUp interviewed Yoliswa Dwane, the organisation’s chairperson, and Brad Brockman, the General Secretary.

GroundUp: Why do we need minimum norms and standards? Why is this an important campaign?

Yoliswa Dwane: This campaign’s about addressing inequality in education. If you don’t do that through a national plan or policy, how else can you do it? Do you do it on a case-by-case basis? No. The whole country needs to know that here is a plan for the provision of good sanitation, for making sure classroom sizes are not too large. Many children learn under terrible conditions and the government has no serious plan to address it. When there is no serious plan, there is no obligation to fix the problems.

GU: Premier Helen Zille has criticised the campaign. She has argued that it’s unrealistic and that the power to fix infrastructure lies with the provinces not the national government.

YD: For Zille to argue that this can’t be done is incorrect. Zille seemed to think we were campaigning against Motshekga as a person but we weren’t. We are making reasonable demands. We don’t expect schools to be fixed immediately. A phased in approach to fixing schools is what we’re looking for. But without government having a serious plan to do so there’s nothing we can hold onto.

Nor was EE the first to call for norms and standards. Former Education Minister Naledi Pandor did a serious detailed draft with timelines. It was, to some extent, a reasonable plan. What we’ve been fighting with Motshekga about is that she refused to promulgate norms, and when she settled out of court her plan was very weak and did not fulfill the Constitutional obligations for basic education. Her January plan was wishy-washy, permissive and had no content or timelines.

Yoliswa Dwane, Equal Education Chairperson.

Nor was EE the first to call for norms and standards. Former Education Minister Naledi Pandor did a serious detailed draft with timelines.

GU: What about the argument that the responsibility to fix infrastructure is a provincial one?

Brad Brockman: It’s the responsibility of the national government to pass laws, develop policies and hold provinces accountable for implementing these policies and laws. The Minister has the power to set a basic standard for school infrastructure, across the country, and we have been campaigning for her to exercise that power. Once we have norms and standards, provinces will have to make sure that their schools meet them, within the requisite time-frames. Students, parents and organisations like EE, as well as the national department have a responsibility for ensuring that the provinces deliver, by monitoring implementation, and in the case of the national department, intervening where there is serious non-delivery.

YD: Provinces will ultimately deliver infrastructure, but they can’t be expected to pick and choose. They need to be guided by a national plan. We’ve visited terrible schools that were prioritised one year then deprioritised the next year. It’s also a legislative requirement that regulations like this be developed.

GU: After the norms and standards are adopted on 30 November, what then for EE?

BB: If we are not happy with the quality of the norms and standards, and feel that they do not meet the requirements of the South African Schools Act or the Constitution, then we may decide to challenge those regulations in court. But as Yoliswa said, once we get norms and standards we’re happy with, we have to shift our attention to the provincial education departments. Each of these departments, are going to have to audit their schools, plan, prioritise and budget to ensure that their schools meet the required standards. This is going to be a massive undertaking and as EE we are committed to ensuring that the adoption of norms and standards results in schools actually being provided with water, electricity, proper toilets and classrooms. We are therefore going to ensure — working together with other organisations, and our members in the different provinces — that we monitor the implementation of the norms and standards.

GU: And longer term?

YD: We’ve built public support around school infrastructure. We will need to move to other systemic issues, but that will depend on the political environment and the power we’ve got. We need to tackle teacher accountability and training. At some point EE has to deal with what is happening inside classrooms. In other words we have to address the quality of learning and teaching.

BB: At the same time as we’re taking up big, national campaigns, we’re responding to issues students and parents raise with us on an ongoing basis. This year for example, we’ve been working together with the Equal Education Law Centre on a number of cases where students have been illegally excluded from school, either because they’re pregnant, practice a certain religion or can’t afford to pay school fees. EE is a grassroots organisation, and the work of building it into a national movement, with sizable membership and influence throughout the country, is ongoing. I’d also add that our work with parents is growing. We currently have eight parent branches in the Western Cape.

YD: Yes, we are building parents’ ability to get involved in their children’s education. We know that school infrastructure won’t be delivered within two to five years. So how do we get local people to monitor the delivery of the norms and standards? That’s the purpose of much of the work we do in communities. To get communities to think about what do we do next. To me the answer will be focusing on the quality of learning in classrooms next. And we need to answer questions like how do we get into a good position to tackle those issues and who will partner with us.

GU: You’ve been criticised for not tackling the quality of teaching sufficiently.

YD: It’s a fair criticism. We haven’t. The way we work is we have focused campaigns. A challenge for an organisation like ours is what do we tackle first. It was a strategic decision to tackle infrastructure first, before issues relating to teaching. We are not under any illusions about the challenges faced by learners and teachers.

“There’s a sense that condemning SADTU and teachers is progressive. We don’t agree with that.”

BB: There’s a sense that condemning SADTU and teachers is progressive. We don’t agree with that. We see teachers, as well as their unions, as central to reforming the education system. The reality is that the overwhelming majority of teachers are members of SADTU, and in the past we’ve sought SADTU’s support for our campaigns. We’ve had some success with that. For example SADTU supported our Campaign for School Libraries. However, at the beginning of this year, in an interview with the Mail & Guardian, the General Secretary of SADTU, Mugwena Maluleke made a vicious attack on EE, which we responded to.

YD: Also, I wouldn’t judge SADTU solely by what certain people are doing. It’s a big organisation with many good leaders that understand that the issues we campaign for are issues important to teachers and their working conditions. It’s a complex organisation.

BB: Yes, we have good relationships with many people in SADTU and there are progressive leaders and teachers we work with.

Brad Brockman, Equal Education General Secretary.

GU: There’s an apocryphal story that John McEnroe, the great tennis player, was critical of the fact that while he earned millions, the people who taught his kids were badly paid. Is addressing teacher salaries critical to fixing teaching?

YD: Teacher salaries don’t encourage people to go into the profession. It’s not a profession that’s respected, not by students and not by government. Paying decent salaries will change the ethos so that people who want to enter the profession think this is a serious career. Teachers should get paid similar to what other professionals get paid.

But at the same time the responsibility of teachers will be to do their job, be on task and make sure that kids learn the basics and critical thinking. Teachers need more training but they also need to take more responsibility and make more effort. To me there’s a balance that needs to be achieved. Because there’s no control within the department especially in the rural areas and little capacity in provincial departments, teachers get away with not coming to work for a week or more and they’re not held accountable. When teachers see there are no measures for accountability and oversight, it’s easy for them not to come to school. There are a few cases of rotten teachers in the system and the department has not taken its responsibility as the employer to get rid of them. Teachers who are committed to education and come to school everyday, who care for kids but lack the skills to teach — the state must support and train those teachers. Government pays lip service on the critical issue of teacher training and development.

“There are a few cases of rotten teachers in the system and the department has not taken its responsibility as the employer to get rid of them.”

GU: There was recently a lot in the media about high absenteeism amongst teachers. One excuse given is that the school environment is very stressful. Teachers are overstretched and there are serious discipline problems.

BB: The inequality between the conditions of service for teachers in poor and rich schools is glaring. So in township schools, teachers have to deal with overcrowded classrooms, not enough textbooks and other learning materials, and no libraries, laboratories or computer centres. The students in these schools come from poor communities, where there’s hunger, unemployment, high rates of crime and abuse. It’s even worse for teachers in rural areas.

YD: Many teachers are also depressed. But what I don’t understand is that teachers miss school for ten or 20 days without reporting. We had a case of a principal who didn’t come to school for nine months. No one went to find him, but he was getting full pay. And this is particularly a problem in deep rural areas because no one can see what is happening there. And the government doesn’t bother. Sometimes there will be a corrupt relationship between district officers and principals. So kids in those schools are left without teachers. Parents feel disempowered because they are illiterate and uneducated and they are bullied by some principals and teachers.There are definitely problems relating to the health of teachers, like depression.

But the state must take responsibility for getting teachers to go to school, start holding teachers accountable and assisting them when necessary. Where teachers are truly ill, the department must get substitutes in. But people without capacity and who’ve been away for a very long time have to go.

GU: There are serious student discipline issues in many schools. How do we address this?

YD: Poor student discipline is one of the things that puts people off going into teaching. At primary school level discipline is good and it’s easier to get parents to assist you with younger kids. But with teenagers in township settings discipline is terrible. So teachers are not only faced with large class sizes, but also with kids with serious socio-economic problems like too little food and violence at home and in their communities. So when kids grow up and reach high school they have even more problems because teenagers are also trying to find themselves. Children bring all of this burden to classrooms and this impacts on their ability to learn.

BB: Late coming is a good example of poor discipline. About 20 percent of South African students come late to school each morning, and about 20 percent of teaching time is lost each day due to late coming and absenteeism. This is a problem which is at its worst in township schools. In 2009 and 2011 Equal Education ran campaigns to try to address this problem, but it’s still around. If you go to schools in Khayelitsha after 8am in the morning, you’ll find up to half of the students locked outside the school gates because they’re late.

YD: Lateness is almost a tradition! And the principal should be addressing it. If no one addresses it, it becomes a culture. And teachers join this culture. They don’t go to the classroom and teach. Some teachers will sit the whole day in the staffroom or in the classroom doing nothing.

“Lateness is almost a tradition! And the principal should be addressing it.”

BB: The culture within schools is reflected by students’ attitude. If students felt there would be consequences for not being on time, they would arrive on time.

YD: Part of the problem is this: Teachers don’t focus enough on grades 7, 8 and 9. Then in grades 10 through 12, they focus on content because this will impact on the matric outcomes. There’s very slow pacing and coverage and many kids don’t finish the curriculum. So kids in schools are only assessed on work they’ve done. When it comes to matric, many have dropped out. [For those still in school] the rush is on to cover the full curriculum so that they can pass national exams. So kids not used to learning a lot, suddenly finds things very hard from about grade 10 onwards.

GU: Moving onto broader questions, are you concerned about the Zuma government?

YD: I am concerned about the looting of the state and the use of public funds for building the private residence of the president and the example that sets. What is happening in government right now is disturbing. Corruption is affecting the poorest people and is happening with a government that is increasingly unable to deliver the basics. Corruption, like spending R50k on KFC, seems to ordinary people like the norm. The state seems to be weakening and unable to deliver. Even though there are many good intentions on the part of the government and ANC, those intentions are in many cases not translated into reality.

GU: Does the appeal of the EFF to young people worry you?

YD: No. Anyone has the right to organise in South Africa. But, what I am worried about is a party that will create illusions for young people about what actually will be achievable and that makes demands contrary to the Constitution. Because to me the Constitution and its principles are something we should support and treasure. It is the one pact that South Africans have agreed to.

“The Constitution and its principles are something we should support and treasure. It is the one pact that South Africans have agreed to.”

GU: Any thoughts on civil society generally?

BB: There needs to be greater cooperation between community organisations and unions and faith-based organisations.

YD: The reliance on [large] donors puts many organisations at risk and it is something that is not sustainable in the long-term. Sometimes donors might feel that they want to take a different direction or that certain work is more important than what the organisation feels is important. That’s how organisations lose financial support from donors. What is happening internationally in the economic environment also puts pressure on NGOs locally. But at the same time Africans and South Africans are not giving enough in their individual capacities to struggles in Africa and South Africa. So until we get more individual giving, we will remain dependent on donors.

The Equal Education website is www.equaleducation.org.za. You can follow Yoliswa Dwane and Brad Brockman on Twitter at @YoliswaD and @BrockmanBrad respectively.